Cheap Suagr From Brazil Being Offered???
Post 1 of 18
I am perplexed at the low price of Brazilian sugar being offered on this forum and others.
My experience is that there is no cheap sugar. If sugar is being traded on the various price boards such as NYBOT in the USD$400's per MT FOB region, I don't see why sugar co-ops/factories/refineries/suppliers in Brazil should be selling at half of those prices. Moreover, sugar producers are better off selling their production to feed the increasing domestic demand for the production of ethanol fuel than dealing with the trouble of exporting them. They are more incentive given by the Brazilian government to these producers. Therefore export price of sugar can only be high in the mid to high USD$300's per MT to allow a small percentage discount for spot purchases.
I was informed that no big sugar export deals (not more than 30,000 MT) has been exported out to Russia, China or India from the Port of Santos over the last few months. Then, by implication, there is no cheap Brazilian sugar and only Real Sugar.
Honourable
My experience is that there is no cheap sugar. If sugar is being traded on the various price boards such as NYBOT in the USD$400's per MT FOB region, I don't see why sugar co-ops/factories/refineries/suppliers in Brazil should be selling at half of those prices. Moreover, sugar producers are better off selling their production to feed the increasing domestic demand for the production of ethanol fuel than dealing with the trouble of exporting them. They are more incentive given by the Brazilian government to these producers. Therefore export price of sugar can only be high in the mid to high USD$300's per MT to allow a small percentage discount for spot purchases.
I was informed that no big sugar export deals (not more than 30,000 MT) has been exported out to Russia, China or India from the Port of Santos over the last few months. Then, by implication, there is no cheap Brazilian sugar and only Real Sugar.
Honourable
28 Apr 2006 17:31
Post 2 of 18
Replying to [Honourable]:
To add to what I have just said above, try buying sugar from a RSA (Refined Sugar Association) member........
Honourable
To add to what I have just said above, try buying sugar from a RSA (Refined Sugar Association) member........
Honourable
28 Apr 2006 17:35
Post 3 of 18
Replying to [MioBoy]:I think most of them still ply their trade as POOP (PERPETUAL OFFER ORBITING PLANET) with prices as far back as 2004. How they got their price, though they claim to be from their seller, I really don't know and how valid and applicable these prices are to present market conditions is everybody's guess.
An intermediary just offered me USD214.00 per MT CIF USD15.00 for a 12,500 MT Brazilian white refined sugar. I told him that his price is way below what my seller can buy from any Brazilian sugar refinery. He in turn offered to sell me 300,000 MT at USD204.00 CIF per MT. This is to illustrate to you the very pathetic situation in the sugar trade today as a result of such practices by and as plied by intermediaries or any trader on the internet today.
For us, we only offer THE PRODUCT as and when my seller is able to source them from the the sugar mill in Brazil. We don't offer the product if we don't have it.
Hence our procedures: QUOTE/OFFER/CONTRACT/DLC/PG/SHIPMENT(DELIVERY) as it pertains to the Safe trading protocol of UCP500 (soon UCP600), Incoterms 2000, URC 522, and URPIB.
Intermediaries just cannot apply the LOI/BCL/POP procedures as they are basicaclly hopeless and useless for intermediaires to use as a tool of trade.
Honourable
An intermediary just offered me USD214.00 per MT CIF USD15.00 for a 12,500 MT Brazilian white refined sugar. I told him that his price is way below what my seller can buy from any Brazilian sugar refinery. He in turn offered to sell me 300,000 MT at USD204.00 CIF per MT. This is to illustrate to you the very pathetic situation in the sugar trade today as a result of such practices by and as plied by intermediaries or any trader on the internet today.
For us, we only offer THE PRODUCT as and when my seller is able to source them from the the sugar mill in Brazil. We don't offer the product if we don't have it.
Hence our procedures: QUOTE/OFFER/CONTRACT/DLC/PG/SHIPMENT(DELIVERY) as it pertains to the Safe trading protocol of UCP500 (soon UCP600), Incoterms 2000, URC 522, and URPIB.
Intermediaries just cannot apply the LOI/BCL/POP procedures as they are basicaclly hopeless and useless for intermediaires to use as a tool of trade.
Honourable
29 Apr 2006 06:28
Post 4 of 18
Replying to [MioBoy]:
Worst still, the LOI/BCL/POP proccedure has been grossly abused by traders to shop either for the Real sellers and buyers...
Worst still, the LOI/BCL/POP proccedure has been grossly abused by traders to shop either for the Real sellers and buyers...
29 Apr 2006 10:25
Post 5 of 18
Replying to [Honourable]:
This seller can't sell sugar without govt approval. The sugar is controlled by govt
This seller is scammed.
He doesn't work for govt.![[em28]](http://img.alibaba.com/images/eng/style/icon/emoticons_confused.gif)
The brazilian govt must have an signed agrrement whom to sell and which country.
HEED WARNING![[em6]](http://img.alibaba.com/images/eng/style/icon/emoticons_rage.gif)
This seller can't sell sugar without govt approval. The sugar is controlled by govt
This seller is scammed.
He doesn't work for govt.
The brazilian govt must have an signed agrrement whom to sell and which country.
HEED WARNING
29 Apr 2006 19:31
Post 6 of 18
Replying to [supraguy]:Also replying to mio:
To me, he is in no better position than you and I as an intermediary. It is typical of an intermediary trader/broker who is either shopping for or trying to convince a seller or buyer with the LOI/BCL ....
It is most advisable for an intermediary to work up to a level of trust with his seller or buyer to be his mandated agent or the Primary Intermediary assisting the seller/buyer.
A sourcing intermediary, as opposed to a Primary Intermediary will find it very difficult to ply his trade with the LOI/BCL procedure...
I would have thought that it will only be professional to ask for banking co-ordinates at contract stage , though some relevant information as to name and contact details of both buyer and his banks can be furnished before contract stage.
I cannot understand why we cannot fall back upon the contract for performance based on the more superior English Laws of Contract with offer, consideration ,intent, and acceptance... If you promise to do this for me , and you fail to do so, you will be in legal trouble with your country's court of law and likewise mine... I or you will sue me for breach of contract.
To me, he is in no better position than you and I as an intermediary. It is typical of an intermediary trader/broker who is either shopping for or trying to convince a seller or buyer with the LOI/BCL ....
It is most advisable for an intermediary to work up to a level of trust with his seller or buyer to be his mandated agent or the Primary Intermediary assisting the seller/buyer.
A sourcing intermediary, as opposed to a Primary Intermediary will find it very difficult to ply his trade with the LOI/BCL procedure...
I would have thought that it will only be professional to ask for banking co-ordinates at contract stage , though some relevant information as to name and contact details of both buyer and his banks can be furnished before contract stage.
I cannot understand why we cannot fall back upon the contract for performance based on the more superior English Laws of Contract with offer, consideration ,intent, and acceptance... If you promise to do this for me , and you fail to do so, you will be in legal trouble with your country's court of law and likewise mine... I or you will sue me for breach of contract.
29 Apr 2006 21:07
Post 7 of 18
Replying to [MioBoy]: No. it has been grossly misabused in order to fish for REAL Sellers and Buyers. and it was a willful sshematic design of the big corporate boys....
Just imagine or think for a moment how do those so-called middlemen of 30-50 years ago or more made it big in Hong Kong and Singapore. They have not traded uasing the LOI/BCL procedures... and yet they made it
...and I am very sure that the big Corporate boys of Europe and America of today having come to what they are today from the same humble beginning, conjure or come up with the LOI/BCL procedures to keep away the small middleman/intermediaries from touching or land on their turfs.... and that is how the big deals always land on their laps.....
Just imagine or think for a moment how do those so-called middlemen of 30-50 years ago or more made it big in Hong Kong and Singapore. They have not traded uasing the LOI/BCL procedures... and yet they made it
...and I am very sure that the big Corporate boys of Europe and America of today having come to what they are today from the same humble beginning, conjure or come up with the LOI/BCL procedures to keep away the small middleman/intermediaries from touching or land on their turfs.... and that is how the big deals always land on their laps.....
30 Apr 2006 23:19
Post 8 of 18
Replying to [Honourable]:You can read all abaout Brazilian sugar at this following site:
http://www.copersucar.com.br/default_ing.asp?Idioma=ing
The site is in Portuguese, English and Spanish.
All the best,
Ed Torres
http://www.copersucar.com.br/default_ing.asp?Idioma=ing
The site is in Portuguese, English and Spanish.
All the best,
Ed Torres
14 Jul 2006 07:31
Post 9 of 18
Replying to [Honourable]:
![[em19]](http://img.alibaba.com/images/eng/style/icon/emoticons_great.gif)
Exactly. First, here in my country is impossible to find sugar at moment : it was all sold. The price is around US$ 450,00 FOB + US$ 10,00 Fee ( high demand ) and if you want C&F ,add + - US$ 70,00 .
Vessel of 12.500MT - ICUMSA 45 is hard to find...containers of Raw Brown Sugar is easier.
Deals like 300.000MT - price US$ 300,00 CIF... = no sense. No comments.
Exactly. First, here in my country is impossible to find sugar at moment : it was all sold. The price is around US$ 450,00 FOB + US$ 10,00 Fee ( high demand ) and if you want C&F ,add + - US$ 70,00 .
Vessel of 12.500MT - ICUMSA 45 is hard to find...containers of Raw Brown Sugar is easier.
Deals like 300.000MT - price US$ 300,00 CIF... = no sense. No comments.
19 Sep 2006 18:11
Post 10 of 18
Replying to [Honourable]:
Hi, I am from Brazil and I am not related to the sugar industry .
All I can tell you is that sugar prices are really down . We have a record on Sugar cane production in our country this year . You may don't know but we also produce sugar cane alchool and use as an alternative fuel on cars here . The prices of this organic fuel have droped 6% in the past 12 months . As well the international prices for refined sugar has droped down as well . I cannot say wether you are being scammed or not . But the competitiveness on pricing is plausible in my point of view .
Hi, I am from Brazil and I am not related to the sugar industry .
All I can tell you is that sugar prices are really down . We have a record on Sugar cane production in our country this year . You may don't know but we also produce sugar cane alchool and use as an alternative fuel on cars here . The prices of this organic fuel have droped 6% in the past 12 months . As well the international prices for refined sugar has droped down as well . I cannot say wether you are being scammed or not . But the competitiveness on pricing is plausible in my point of view .
02 Oct 2006 08:36
Post 11 of 18
Replying to [supraguy]:
Brazilian government does not control international commodity trades.
All the best,
Ed Torres
Brazilian government does not control international commodity trades.
All the best,
Ed Torres
13 Feb 2007 08:20