Quoting from [germex]:


That beautiful world you are describing is something I also long for. Only that I came to realize that to achieve it you have to forgive. And in the moment you really forgive you also forget - whatever separated you from your next has become irrelevant and therefore something your brain won't accept to remember.

Good to see we are going to an agreement anyway. We began with a Korean political issue and I told you that there's one political party that I think is harful to this society. You just advise me, "forget it; that is, forgive them", but as to me, thre' s no forgiveness, where there's no repentance. Forgiveness has meaning to only those who repent. Unconditional forgiveness might be another shape of escapism. You may have peace in your mind but it never gets the community better.

I agree with you on the point that the moment you really forgive you also forget.

 

HC

Quoting from [hcchoi]:

Good to see we are going to an agreement anyway. We began with a Korean political issue and I told you that there's one political party that I think is harful to this society. You just advise me, "forget it; that is, forgive them", but as to me, thre' s no forgiveness, where there's no repentance. Forgiveness has meaning to only those who repent. Unconditional forgiveness might be another shape of escapism. You may have peace in your mind but it never gets the community better.

I agree with you on the point that the moment you really forgive you also forget.

HC

Well, we are getting closer in our positions, and that is good. And I partially agree with you on your point that you shouldn't forgive someone who doesn't repent. If he insists out of ignorance, don't make it a big deal. Rather try to make him understand his mistakes, using all the different approaches you can come up with. But if he insists out of evilness, there is indeed nothing to forgive. Just don't "carry it around" with you in your feelings. Then it would destroy you, without being guilty.

Quoting from [germex]:

Well, we are getting closer in our positions, and that is good. And I partially agree with you on your point that you shouldn't forgive someone who doesn't repent. If he insists out of ignorance, don't make it a big deal. Rather try to make him understand his mistakes, using all the different approaches you can come up with. But if he insists out of evilness, there is indeed nothing to forgive. Just don't "carry it around" with you in your feelings. Then it would destroy you, without being guilty.

Spiritually there's nothing not to forgive; on the contrary you can forgive or even love first to have them change, but that's what is needed only when you mean to fulfil the spritual haeven in christianity. In this earthly life where the evil power prevails, we must not give up exercising the virtue of judgment on the evil power.

 

HC

Quoting from [hcchoi]:Spiritually there's nothing not to forgive; on the contrary you can forgive or even love first to have them change, but that's what is needed only when you mean to fulfil the spritual haeven in christianity. In this earthly life where the evil power prevails, we must not give up exercising the virtue of judgment on the evil power.

HC

You MUST not? What authority ordered you that?

Quoting from [germex]:

where the evil power prevails, we must not give up exercising the virtue of judgment on the evil power.

HC

You MUST not? What authority ordered you that?

Hahaha...any problem with my point? What authority? What do you guess but the voting... we are authorized to vote for the less evil ones and at the rear we have the right of resistance. You know we began with a political issue of Korea. That's all.

Quoting from [hcchoi]:


...any problem with my point? What authority? What do you guess but the voting... we are authorized to vote for the less evil ones and at the rear we have the right of resistance. You know we began with a political issue of Korea. That's all.

What do the right to vote and an authority to give you orders have to do with each other? For me, this discussion was meant to enlighten each other, not to be a word fight. Please be a little more reflexive. Whatever might have gone wrong in your life, it wasn't caused by me.

You are right in that the discussion started with a political issue: the reunification of Korea. And my wish is that you'll understand that this great goal won't be achieved if people decide to hold useless grudges instead of showing a positive, constructive attitude.

Quoting from [germex]:

What do the right to vote and an authority to give you orders have to do with each other? For me, this discussion was meant to enlighten each other, not to be a word fight. Please be a little more reflexive. Whatever might have gone wrong in your life, it wasn't caused by me.

You are right in that the discussion started with a political issue: the reunification of Korea. And my wish is that you'll understand that this great goal won't be achieved if people decide to hold useless grudges instead of showing a positive, constructive attitude.

 

I hope we are not going back to the starting point. Being positive or not, constructive or not, that's nothing to do with the political inclination or the ideological prejudice or even grudges; on the other side, being positive or contructive even to those who never repented for their evil acts in the past just seems to me like a coward compromise, which might be less positive or less contructive to youself as well.

You agreed with me on the point that those evil doers deserve no forgiveness before they repent and I did with you on the point that unconditional forgiveness can move even those evil doers so I think there's no more need of controversy.

 

HC

Quoting from [hcchoi]:

Quoting from [germex]:

What do the right to vote and an authority to give you orders have to do with each other? For me, this discussion was meant to enlighten each other, not to be a word fight. Please be a little more reflexive. Whatever might have gone wrong in your life, it wasn't caused by me.

You are right in that the discussion started with a political issue: the reunification of Korea. And my wish is that you'll understand that this great goal won't be achieved if people decide to hold useless grudges instead of showing a positive, constructive attitude.

I hope we are not going back to the starting point. Being positive or not, constructive or not, that's nothing to do with the political inclination or the ideological prejudice or even grudges; on the other side, being positive or contructive even to those who never repented for their evil acts in the past just seems to me like a coward compromise, which might be less positive or less contructive to youself as well.

You agreed with me on the point that those evil doers deserve no forgiveness before they repent and I did with you on the point that unconditional forgiveness can move even those evil doers so I think there's no more need of controversy.

HC

If you "look" closely and with success in mind, you'll realize that my comments are very much to the point, but the way you twist them sounds known to me. Hmm, a new ID in the forums, a known "voice"... Where have I met you before?

Quoting from [germex]:

If you "look" closely and with success in mind, you'll realize that my comments are very much to the point, but the way you twist them sounds known to me. Hmm, a new ID in the forums, a known "voice"... Where have I met you before?

Actually, your advice at the begining "Accept it and just live in peace with them" just sounded to me like only a defeatist's excuse for his coward compormise with the despoilers but I came to know through discussion you didn't mean it; nevertheless, if you knew who they were, you wouldn't say like that.

I have played before with another ID in the forum but to be honest I didn't know you then so have never twisted your point. I respect your viewpoint adn I just want to correct or complement false information about Korea whenever I see in this forum...

 

HC

Quoting from [hcchoi]:Actually, your advice at the begining "Accept it and just live in peace with them" just sounded to me like only a defeatist's excuse for his coward compormise with the despoilers but I came to know through discussion you didn't mean it; nevertheless, if you knew who they were, you wouldn't say like that.

I have played before with another ID in the forum but to be honest I didn't know you then so have never twisted your point. I respect your viewpoint adn I just want to correct or complement false information about Korea whenever I see in this forum...

HC

Apparently I misunderstood something, but let's not try to arrange that, because most of the times the confusion only gets worse.

Perhaps my advice "Accept it and just live in peace with them" sounds defeatist, but is product of ample life experience. I'm a fighter by nature, but not a foolish one. I fight where I have something to lose (or to win), but not for reasons like pride or whatever.

When it comes to history, there is nothing to lose or to win. The only thing history normally is "good" for is creating an unnecessary burden that only harms you, but can never possibly cause anything good. So why carry it? Pride? Not my thing!

As I said, I learned the hard way how good it is for the forgiver himself to forgive others. It makes the forgiver relax and also is the only thing that can create a better future. And that's what we all want, don't we?

I remember one time when I figuratively grabbed my own throat and "choked" myself until I forced myself to forgive somebody who had done incredible harm to me.

That happened almost 25 years ago, and it still is causing me problems sometimes. But the day I forgave him, things turned around and I was finally able to rebuild my life - at least to a good degree. And that's what I desire for you and all Koreans. - Take it from a geezer!