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Posted on Aug 28, 2007 at 01:21
How to deal with online scammers located in China?

I've been frequently presented with this question by many Alibaba members who have been scammed by rogues in China. Their method oftentimes is not sophisticated. A roughly designed website, several pictures of products, MSN or email address only and address given only in English or incomplete in Chinese. But it seems to work and many a bona fide Alibaba trader got scammed.

They want to pursue the scammer and shut down the website. But, other than posting the scammer's name and address on the Alibaba forums, how? Given the volume and similarity of these cases, I think there is a need to write something specifically on this topic .I've helped some non-Chinese Alibaba members pursue the scammers and the following is my advice.

I think enough has been said on the Fraud & Security Forum on how to shun the scammer. However, it may be equally useful to know how to deal with the scammer after being scammed. When scammed, one normally wants two things: the first is to take back their money; the second is to shut down the scammer's website. Sometimes, they can achieve both; sometimes, they can get one thing done, while in a fairly good number of cases, none. The reasons may vary by case.

For a foreigner who wishes to act all on his own, their chance of getting both done is almost nil. So retaining a lawyer would be the first step. At this stage, however, the cost should be the first issue to consider. If the money lost is a few thousand dollars, you may consider taking the scam as a lesson because that amount may probably not be enough to retain a lawyer who "really" can represent you all through the legal proceedings to recover your money. I mean "really" because not all lawyers are capable of taking such cases. The legal proceedings, once initiated, may take longer time and turn out far more complex than you could expect, because such cases are treated as "foreign-related" under Chinese law and may involve different lawyering expertise. Let alone the issue of language. 

 

If you decide the case is worth pursuing, then, finding the right, competent authority would be crucial. Neither you nor your lawyer may seize the scammer by hand. You have to decide whether to lodge civil actions against the scammer or report to the police. Someone may have suggested calling the local police at such emergency number as 120, hoping they would intervene and seize the scammer and shut down the website. That may sound good, but is not realistic. Local police usually take care of local matters. The emergency number is mostly used to report emergency matters. And most of the police taking such calls do not speak English. How could you expect them to take your verbally-reported case that arose out of an online, cross-border transaction? I was once told by a frank police officer in Beijing that they normally direct such callers to the callers' embassies in Beijing for help. So, you can expect what will follow.

 

In order to report such scams, the practice is to prepare a complete documentation of facts and evidence and report to the police in person, or through a duly authorized representative. Such cases, once accepted, are usually taken over by the commercial crimes division of the police for investigation and they may take such actions as closing down the scammer's website and confiscating their illegal gains. However, in order to recover your loss, you may have to lodge an ancillary civil action against the scammer and the outcome and timeline will depend on that of the criminal proceedings.

 

It may also be possible to lodge the civil action directly against the scammer. But, as a first step, you must find the scammer's actual location, without which the court won't take your filing. The location shall be the abode of the individual scammer and the business address of the corporate scammer. Sometimes, the scammed may find themselves unable to provide the accurate location of the scammers, with only fuzzy, incomplete address in English available. That does not make sense to the judge. Website URLs, MSN numbers, email addresses, or bank account number of the scammer are not enough, too. Some scammers are very sly and always avoid giving their address in Chinese either on their website or in their communications. This may bring trouble. The Internet service provider normally will not disclose the information of the scammer that hosts the website to third parties on alleged fraud and the local government authority in charge of telecommunication services is also reluctant to shut down the website without written confirmation from either the police or the local court judgment, because, as one official of the Beijing Bureau of Telecommunications once told me, they are not authorized by law to investigate such scam allegations and therefore may not shut down a website merely on such allegations. In such cases, the scammed may have to turn to the police first in the hope of finding the scammer's whereabouts. Then the ancillary civil action.

 

If your main purpose is only to shut down the scammers' website, rather than pursue them to recover your loss. There is also an inexpensive and easy way. The Chinese government has set up or sponsored online report centres that take reports of illegal websites. Websites used for scams may also be reported. The centres will then bring these reports to local police and they will crack down on the scams and close the websites, not on a daily basis but regularly. The name list of the closed websites will be published on the centres' own website. One such centre is the China Internet Illegal Information Reporting Centre (http://net.china.cn/) hosted by the Internet Society of China. They have an English version but reports can only be made in Chinese. Another centre is hosted by the Ministry of Public Security of the State Council at http://cyberpolice.cn. They only take reports in Chinese. Both require minimum information of the reporter and charge no fee. So, if you can type Chinese, or have a Chinese friend, you may try this.

 

In sum, in order to cope with the online scammers located in China , you need to decide on your main objects, find the right representative and choose the right course. Otherwise, you may either remain helpless or throw good money after bad. 

 

 

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Posted on Aug 29, 2007 at 06:25
Re: How to deal with online scammers located in China?
Replying to [lawyer_He]:

Good point! [em1][em1]
Let's work together to fight against scammers in China. They really ruined the good image of reliable Chinese businessmen !
We hate scammers worldwide!

BUSINESS IN CHINA: WWW DOT BIZINCHINA DOT CC
Posted on Aug 30, 2007 at 06:57
Re: Re: How to deal with online scammers located in China?
Replying to [Business in China]:

Alibaba is paradise for Small and Medium Sized Biz!

You can not ask a small company to
sense about Environmentally friendly/....

as their top propority......

They are cost sensitively, and
will act like How Smally to be beautiful and ugly!

B-Dias AmigosParaSiempre"Jose Fellow enAlibaba"- Tradin'Yiwu City et yiwufairs.org&yiwufair.com
Posted on Aug 30, 2007 at 08:21
Re: How to deal with online scammers located in China?
Replying to [lawyer_He]: hello, I like your article, for me personally, this article brings me at least 3 steps forwards in my efforts to deal with Chinese companies. But I also like to know the other way, Me selling something to a Chinese company, than travelling to them, signing an agreement and than........................nothing, only expenses and frust.

Posted on Aug 30, 2007 at 21:41
Re: How to deal with online scammers located in China?
Replying to [lawyer_He]:

The scammers are so cunning that they always choose such a not-so-small-and-not-so-big sum, and they had grasped the human weakness. I mean typical Putian Scammers. Solving the problem entirely will need the efforts from several parties, the victims, local police, public media, lawyer, and......ALIBABA COMPANY.

Donate your little but great love to students in poverty: www.cydf.org.cn/gb/english/index.htm
Posted on Sep 04, 2007 at 01:30
Re: Re: How to deal with online scammers located in China?
Quoting from [spaander]:


Replying to [lawyer_He]: hello, I like your article, for me personally, this article brings me at least 3 steps forwards in my efforts to deal with Chinese companies. But I also like to know the other way, Me selling something to a Chinese company, than travelling to them, signing an agreement and than........................nothing, only expenses and frust.



Dear Spaander,

Thank your for your compliments.

In your case, I would say, it's even more important to have your man in China, because:

 (i)you are selling to China and are therefore at risk of  not being able to collecting your money;

 (ii) since your product will be sold and distributed in China, there is the issue of legal compliance in respect of product quality, patent/trade markcompliance, etc.. they are not just the obligations of the purchaser;and

(iii) you want not to travel to China to save costs.

Have a man in China  whom you trust and believe having the legal expertise.

This way can either save you from trouble or, if it occurs, get it resolved with minimum loss.

regards

 


Posted on Sep 04, 2007 at 06:13
Re: How to deal with online scammers located in China?
Replying to [lawyer_He]:Can a solicitor in China help?
I have been scammed by a Chinese company , I have ordered and payied for some Nokia Sirocco 8800 24GP phones, and I received cheap copies of NOKIA 8800 made in China, which are not even working here.... Not to mention all accessories were wrong and there were things missing....
I have red the Forum and discovered few other people have been cheated by the same company and Alibaba doesn t get involved in any way letting some more ppl getting cheated by this OOSOON company.
Can you help?
Thank you
Camelia

Posted on Sep 07, 2007 at 01:00
Re: Re: Re: How to deal with online scammers located in China?
I would say there are bad guys everywhere in the world.
Maybe as the legal system problem, there's more in China.
Too many companies are doing business, some are real businessman, some not.
the safe way I think is:
1. try to work with bigger company, that's safeer than small one or personal business
2.find a friend in China or an agent, they can check goods
for you before shipment
Anybody have good idea please share

we sell barcelona chair table,egg swan chair,tulip chair table, eames chair table and more....
Posted on Sep 11, 2007 at 08:43
Re: Re: How to deal with online scammers located in China?
Replying to [tkammyus]:i do think you have to hire a person in china for your buisness,if you want to get more leagal supplier here in china,bettter find trust person who is willing to work to you for checking company reputation.

Posted on Nov 30, 2007 at 07:34
FRAUD
Hello,

I am Mihai a sale manager from a company named LMV MEDIA, Romania.
From the beginning of the year we are doing bussiness with suppliers from China.
In the last time we are focused on only 1 supplier. His name is MAC CON ASIA LIMITED.

MAC-CON ASIA LIMITED
Room 702, LiJingXuan, XianTongYuJing, GuoWei Road, LianTang, LuoHu District, Shenzhen, Guangdong, China
Telephone: 86-755-2577-5980 , 86-755-2577-5925
Fax: 86-755-2577-5450

After 4 orders with mp3 players, baby monitors etc, we made on 18.10.2007 an order of 52 mp3 players.

When we received the goods we found the following problem.

We found in the packet the following goods:
1. 41 boxes of mp4 players (instead of 52 boxes)
- from which: 1. 10 boxes with everithing inside, player and accessories
2. 31 boxes just with accessories, player missing
2. 12 charger adaptor (which are not good for Romania)
3. 3 headphones
4. 9 player socks

So there are:
1. 11 boxes which are missing
2. 42 players which are missing
-------------------------------
Totaly the loss is arround 2200 USD


We contacted MAC CON ASIA LIMITED and from that moment our relation was practicaly stopped.
I only received from them the following information: "Wenxiang International Forwarder" stole the products and that all.
Mac Con is not answering to phone, to emails, to MSN. They let us with a loss of 2200 USD.

We can provide, and we provide also to MAC CON the following papers.

- a paper which was completed by EMS in CHINA with the weight 9.9 kilos, which i can mention is the same here in Romania 9.9 kilo. So the point is that the colet left from China with the goods missing.
- declaration of goods from customs (what we received, what is missing etc)
...etc

I mention also that we paid for shipping to be made with TNT, but MAC CON ASIA decide by themself to send the goods with EMS.


Mihai

LMV MEDIA

Posted on Dec 03, 2007 at 00:21
Re: FRAUD
Quoting from [Mihai]:


Hello,


I am Mihai a sale manager from a company named LMV MEDIA, Romania.

From the beginning of the year we are doing bussiness with suppliers from China.

In the last time we are focused on only 1 supplier. His name is MAC CON ASIA LIMITED.


MAC-CON ASIA LIMITED

Room 702, LiJingXuan, XianTongYuJing, GuoWei Road, LianTang, LuoHu District, Shenzhen, Guangdong, China

Telephone: 86-755-2577-5980 , 86-755-2577-5925

Fax: 86-755-2577-5450


After 4 orders with mp3 players, baby monitors etc, we made on 18.10.2007 an order of 52 mp3 players.


When we received the goods we found the following problem.


We found in the packet the following goods:

1. 41 boxes of mp4 players (instead of 52 boxes)

- from which: 1. 10 boxes with everithing inside, player and accessories

2. 31 boxes just with accessories, player missing

2. 12 charger adaptor (which are not good for Romania)

3. 3 headphones

4. 9 player socks


So there are:

1. 11 boxes which are missing

2. 42 players which are missing

-------------------------------

Totaly the loss is arround 2200 USD



We contacted MAC CON ASIA LIMITED and from that moment our relation was practicaly stopped.

I only received from them the following information: "Wenxiang International Forwarder" stole the products and that all.

Mac Con is not answering to phone, to emails, to MSN. They let us with a loss of 2200 USD.


We can provide, and we provide also to MAC CON the following papers.


- a paper which was completed by EMS in CHINA with the weight 9.9 kilos, which i can mention is the same here in Romania 9.9 kilo. So the point is that the colet left from China with the goods missing.

- declaration of goods from customs (what we received, what is missing etc)

...etc


I mention also that we paid for shipping to be made with TNT, but MAC CON ASIA decide by themself to send the goods with EMS.



Mihai


LMV MEDIA



Dear Mihai,

You may wish to have a second read of my post for advice. Your case appears to be one about short delivery and the China supplier appears to be in breach.


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